In honor
of the 236th birthday of the declaration of independence, I think it
would be appropriate to say a few words in honor of its author, Thomas Jefferson.
Thomas Jefferson is my favorite president, I am a strong believer in Jeffersonian
democracy and I feel that our country, while maintaining the core structure
might have strayed from his original goal. I hope that this will inspire some
of you, my readers, to find out a little more about this great man, and who
knows? Maybe this will inspire you to get up and get involved.
I believe the foundation of Jeffersonian
philosophy is as he himself said, “Rightful
liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around
us by the equal rights of others..." In other words, every man should
have the right to do as he pleases, so long as he does not infringe on the
rights of his fellow man to do the same.
Jefferson was uncomfortable with a
big government, or a government that got too comfortable with its power. He knew
that government was unavoidable and therefore wanted to keep it small and in
its place. In a letter to Abigail Adams he wrote, "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on
certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be
exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all." In
another letter, this time to William S. Smith, he wrote, "And what country can preserve its
liberties, if the rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people
preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms." He felt that
the needs of the people must always be the first priority of the government,
and that people should be involved in the government. He called for a
unified and educated America; he founded the University of Virginia and donated
all his books to the library of congress.
Probably the single saying
of his which I love the most is
“The
question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind another, seems never
to have been started either on this or our side of the water. Yet it is a
question of such consequences as not only to merit decision, but place also,
among the fundamental principles of every government. The course of reflection
in which we are immersed here on the elementary principles of society has
presented this question to my mind; and that no such obligation can be
transmitted I think very capable of proof. I set out on this ground which I
suppose to be self evident, "that the earth belongs in usufruct to the
living;" that the dead have neither powers nor rights over it.”
The honesty and humility, in that
statement is why I admire him so much. Although he authored one of the greatest
documents of all time, he was aware of his limitations as a human being. He knew
that he could only ever say, that this seems to be the best idea that we have
right now, and I will leave the door open for future generations who might have
better ideas.
Jefferson was also a great
supporter of human rights, as he famously stated in the declaration of
independence “We hold these truths to be
self evident, that all men are created equal” and the idea that people have
“unalienable rights, that among these are,
life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”. Unlike most governments of
his time, he truly tried, and succeeded, to create a secular state, and
famously called for “a wall of separation
between church and state”.
He was also a skeptical philosopher
and his belief in god was limited to Deism. Although, in a letter to his nephew
Peter Carr he famously wrote “Fix Reason
firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion.
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one,
he must more approve the homage of reason than of blindfolded fear. ... Do not
be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a
belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort
and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it
will procure for you. -- (Jefferson's Works, Vol. ii., p. 217)”
He was an inventor and a philosopher,
he is quoted as saying that he would have loved to dedicate his life to being a
natural philosopher but his duties to his country came first, a true American Marcus Aurelius.
I raise my glass to you Thomas Jefferson,
my favorite president, and thank you for your work in the establishment of the
ideals of this country, which has made my life so much better. While America may
not be perfect, it is surly one of the freest countries in the world, it has
been the leader and light bearer for many countries that followed suit, and thanks
is due to you.
Happy Fourth of July!
"If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you."
ReplyDeleteAs did atheists like Reinhard Heydrich, Jim Jones (of the People's Temple), Jeff Dahmer (serial killer), Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong-il, etc.
Quaint and naive.
It would also be interesting to know how large an influence Thomas Jefferson's sexual tastes played in his secular beliefs.
ReplyDeleteIt is generally accepted by historians that in 1787 Jefferson, then widowed for five years and 44 years old, took a 14 year old slave girl, who was 75% white, as his concubine. She would bear Jefferson at least six children until his death at age 83.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings
This is basically the equivalent of a middle aged guy today having sex with this 14 year old undocumented immigrant housekeeper.
Jefferson, incidentally, subscribed to scientific racism, as Darwin later would, and considered to blacks to be mentally and physically inferior to whites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jefferson_and_slavery#Notes_on_the_State_of_Virginia
"As did atheists like Reinhard Heydrich, Jim Jones (of the People's Temple), Jeff Dahmer (serial killer), Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong-il, etc."
ReplyDeleteyes but they did not have all of his other opinions, hence turning them into the horrid people they were
"It is generally accepted by historians that in 1787 Jefferson, then widowed for five years and 44 years old, took a 14 year old slave girl, who was 75% white, as his concubine. She would bear Jefferson at least six children until his death at age 83"
firstly reread the wikipedia link you sent to me, at 14 she went to paris, the affair started somewhere over the next two years. Secondly, I must applaud your judgement, I find it fantastically refreshing that you can see that it is moraly repugnant in the light of todays morality, notwithstanding the fact that it is a MITZVAH to marry a twelve year old ex jewish slave. It is a sign of the drowth of humanity (and even you) beyond the primitive and dated "morality" found in the bible.
"if she is displeasing in the eyesof her master, that he did not designate her for himself, he shall have her redeemed; he shall not have the autority to sell her to a strange people, in his BETRAYAL of her"
rashi comments on this
"here the verse hinted to that it is a mitzvah (to terminate the maidservats bondage) through designation (as a wife)"
Nonetheless, we cannot judge anyones morality without first looking at the moral zeitgeist of the time. In his time (as the link you sent me to stated) it was perfectly acceptable to do so, his father-in-law did this as well. Furthermore, he could only take her as a concubine since he swore to his wife that he would not remarry after her death.In addition the marrige between the two of them would not have been recognized by the law at the time.
"yes but they did not have all of his other opinions, hence turning them into the horrid people they were"
ReplyDeleteLike blacks being an inferior race? The truth is, without God, everything is permitted.
"at 14 she went to paris, the affair started somewhere over the next two years"
Wow, maybe he waited a few months before taking advantage of his slave. Wonderful.
"notwithstanding the fact that it is a MITZVAH to marry a twelve year old ex jewish slave"
Jefferson didn't free her or marry or make any sort of public commitment to her. She and her children remained his property, no more or less.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings#Return_to_the_US
"Nonetheless, we cannot judge anyones morality without first looking at the moral zeitgeist of the time."
Although atheists constantly do that in regards to the Bible and the Talmud.
"In his time (as the link you sent me to stated) it was perfectly acceptable to do so, his father-in-law did this as well."
It was common, however not acceptable according to the teachings of the church. Could this have led Jefferson to reject the church?
Incidentally, a man was only allowed to sell his daughter into temporary bondage if he was completely destitute and he was obligated to redeem her if financially able to.
ReplyDeletehttp://m.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/1363808
In addition, this law applied only when the Jubilee year was in effect
http://www.come-and-hear.com/gittin/gittin_65.html
meaning that the practice was discontinued about 2,600 years ago.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/513212/jewish/When-is-the-next-Jubilee-year.htm
Plus, of course, the master could have no intercourse with her while she was a slave, only once they were legally married and she was free.
the point was that having sex with a TWELEVE YEAR OLD was morally ok, and even a mitzvah, acoording to the bible. just one more example how outdated the bible's sense of morality is in todays day and age
ReplyDeleteOf course it is. Today men just go ahead and have sex with children without bothering with parental consent or marriage as the Bible requires (the sex offender registry is up to about 750,000 and growing); inspired no doubt by luminaries such as Jefferson.
ReplyDeleteYou've come a long way baby.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Slims#Marketing
shunah uporash:please ignore this criminaly insane ignorant savage calling himself 'JEWISH PHILOSOPHER"
ReplyDeleteIt is pretty obvious that this piece of human garbage is nothing but a criminally insane sex maniac,who is obsessed with sex,this animal has thousands of posts all over the web arguing with atheist's,and every single one of his arguments he somehow brings in his obsession with sex.
please ignore this pervert and don't dignify his lunatic rantigs by answering back to him.
by the way i myself am a frum believing jew, and of course don't agree with your conclusions nontheless i respect your opinions and enjoy immensly your writings,and i cannot get over the fact that a young kid who grew up in BOBOV,should write and express himself so eloquently,keep up thje good work
first of all thank you, secondly i am starting to see what you are talking about, however i refuse to either delete posts or leave him with the last word. so i respond.
Delete"It is pretty obvious that this piece of human garbage is nothing but a criminally insane sex maniac,who is obsessed with sex,this animal has thousands of posts all over the web arguing with atheist's,and every single one of his arguments he somehow brings in his obsession with sex."
ReplyDeleteActually, that sounds more like the OTD (atheist apostate) community.
Check out this blog
http://theunorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/
a big part of this blog
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/
the protest rally organized by apostates outside Citifield's orthodox rally
http://www.thejewishweek.com/editorial_opinion/opinion/anti_internet_rally_broken_truths
For these apostates, there is an obsession with "rabbinical sexual misconduct" which is ALMOST COMPLETELY NONEXISTENT. Law enforcement can't find it, people in the orthodox community are unaware of it, but the apostate crowd can't stop screaming about it.
If this isn't a clear case of psychological projection, I don't know what is.
But, incidentally, deleting my posts is a wise idea. Most atheists bloggers do, because I make you look like fools and who needs that?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Deletethat would be very un-jeffersonian of me... in addition i could never mock your "intellect" as well as your own words do.
DeleteActually, I think they're doing you a favor by deleting your posts. Keeping them only makes you look like a fool.
ReplyDeleteSo Jefferson, scientific racist and known pedophile, remains a paragon of virtue because he questioned God. That's perfectly rational; what could I have been thinking?
ReplyDeleteno, he was our greatest president (imo) because he championed human rights, was a genuine intellectual, supporter of education, fought to keep power in the hands of the people, and all you hear is SEX, SEX, SEX. in addition your criticism of him is advocated by the very philosophy you claim to hold!
Deletei dont think that you have been thinking!
George Washington was far better.
DeleteI'm simply saying that Jefferson's atheistic leanings may have been a way of denying guilt for his out of control sexual behavior. He wouldn't be the last. David Assaf professor, Department of Jewish History, Tel Aviv University, Israel; himself formerly Orthodox, says it's important factor today as well.
http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/05/quote-of-day.html
Just incidentally, Jefferson apparently denied any relationship or children with his concubine. He definitely never acknowledged them publicly.
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson-Hemings_controversy#Controversy
What a great guy, what a real dad, what an inspiration.
“I'm simply saying that Jefferson's atheistic leanings may have been a way of denying guilt for his out of control sexual behavior.”
ReplyDeleteFirstly, he was not an atheist he was a deist. Secondly, his skeptical attitude pre-dates his affair with Sally. Finally, what you call his “out of control sexual behavior” is non-existent, he was married, was faithful until his wife’s death, after which he had a concubine until his death. How is this out of control? Furthermore, how can YOU view it as out of control when your torah permits polygamy, concubines, and marrying 12 year olds?
I will not argue against George Washington, however to restate what I feel were Jefferson’s strongest points, he championed human rights, was a genuine intellectual, supporter of education, and fought to keep power in the hands of the people. For these reasons, I admire him.
This is the only Jeffersonian sexual indiscretion which we know of; don't forget that he had access to female slaves his entire life, which he thought was OK since they were an inferior race.
ReplyDeleteJefferson was a gentile. As such, nothing he did transgressed the Noahide laws which applied to him.
But he was still a scumball
When I was delving into atheism one thing which struck me several years ago is that all atheists are lowlifes.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.torahphilosophy.com/2007/05/godlessness-is-not-great-how-lack-of.html
The reason for this I think is simple. If you aren't a lowlife, there is no point in being an atheist.
[And I realize that Jefferson was not an atheist. Until Origin of Species, almost no one was, other than a few real crackpots. Prior to evolution, there was no possibility of explaining life without an intelligent designer. However Jefferson may not have believed in a personal God.]
“But he was still a scumball”
ReplyDeleteThe only complaint that you raised against him, I believe I addressed. You cannot just assert “he was still a scumball” without explaining yourself. And just to save you time, if you are going to restart the conversation again by raising the same points again, don’t bother, because I will respond again exactly as I did last time.
“When I was delving into atheism one thing which struck me several years ago is that all atheists are lowlifes.”
I am sorry you met those kinds of people; most atheists I know are genuinely nice people. Maybe you should get around more…
“If you aren't a lowlife, there is no point in being an atheist.”
I beg to differ, the “point” to being an atheist to me, is the intellectual honesty and humility that comes along with not claiming to know things that I don’t, and not accepting as fact something which has not been demonstrated as such.
Its simple honesty and integrity that drives people to become atheists, I have seen people in all stages of the process of going from believer to atheist, and the common denominator is honest questioning.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDon't you think that Jefferson's behavior represented disgusting and monumental selfishness? In other words he was a lowlife. (I'm am trying to use a less obscene substitute for "a--hole" which is what I actually mean.)
ReplyDeleteIf not, I guess that says a lot about you.
i do agree in the context of today's morality, what he did would be viewed as wrong. however to judge him as a person can only be done in the context of the moral zeitgeist of his time.
ReplyDeletehowever how you can view his actions as "disgusting" is beyond me, when the very philosophy you preach DEMANDS this very action that you find so "disgusting"
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I disagree with this whole zeitgeist business. If you rape and murder a woman, you are a psycho. It's not OK just because it happened a thousand years ago and you were a Viking.
ReplyDeleteAnd the Torah doesn't allow Jewish slave owners to have sex with their slaves.
“If you rape and murder a woman, you are a psycho.”
ReplyDeleteAgain, this is something the torah does allow. The torah allows you to have sex with a woman whether she wants it or not, even if she is married.
“When you will go out to war against your enemies… and you will see among its captivity a woman who is beautiful of form, and you will desire her, you will take her to yourself for a wife”
“Even a married woman (rashi)”
“the Torah doesn't allow Jewish slave owners to have sex with their slaves”
I guess I misunderstood you, I thought that when you said “he was still a scumball” you were referring to the fact that he had sex with a fourteen year old as you said “…then widowed for five years and 44 years old, took a 14 year old slave girl” in which case the torah does allow a 44 year old to have sex with a 14 year old. If you felt that the issue was that he was, as you said “…taking advantage of his slave” again the torah permits you to take advantage of women as per the quote above. Furthermore, if your problem was slavery in general, again, the torah permits it, and WE, fallible humans understood better and made it illegal.
So in conclusion every claim that you have against Jefferson morally, does not come from the torah, it comes from the modern moral zeitgeist, and I therefore congratulate you on rising above the torahs Bronze Age, backwards, primitive sense of morality.
"this is something the torah does allow"
ReplyDeleteNo it doesn't. See the text itself, Deuteronomy 21:10-14. No rape or murder.
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0521.htm#10
And the Torah does not allow slave owners to have sex with slaves.
Atheism however permits anything.
You seem to have just about worn out the "straw man" logical fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
You may want to consider moving on to a different logical fallacy just to spice things up a little. I have whole list of logical fallacies which atheists commonly resort to.
http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2009/06/post-about-comments.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
ReplyDeleteI resent your claim that I am attacking a straw man. The torah allows you to take a woman as captive and marry her if you should so wish, regardless of her consent or lack thereof.
“No it doesn't. See the text itself, Deuteronomy 21:10-14. No rape or murder”
I just reread it, it does not mention a word about her consenting. In other words, when you go out to war and see a nice woman, if you want her take her. In my book, this is rape.
“Atheism however permits anything”
And so does the law of gravity. The reason for this is that neither of these are claims about morality. Gravity describes one of the interactions between massive objects, and atheism is a position on the existence of god. This is apparently a point that I cannot seem to get through to you, atheism is simply a LACK of belief in god, and therefore makes no positive claims, talk about straw men...
It doesn't mention a word about her not consenting either. You're reading something into the Torah which isn't there. Maimonides simply writes
ReplyDeleteוכן בועל אישה בגיותה, אם תקפו יצרו
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e508.htm
Again, before you critique Judaism you have to make sure you're referring to something which Jews actually believe in. Otherwise, you are simply using a straw man fallacy.
According to atheism, anything may be considered moral. The most horrific crimes against humanity have been instigated by the atheists Marx and Nietzsche, as I point out.
http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2012/07/nietzsche-atheist-icon.html
Jeff Dahmer explained that atheism made it possible for him to kill and eat innocent people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Dahmer
http://youtube.googleapis.com/v/IjW7bezdddE
"וכן בועל אישה בגיותה, אם תקפו יצרו"
ReplyDeleteThank you for sending me to the rambam, after reading it I noticed that the next few words were telling you that you don’t even have to marry her to have sex with her, you get to “test drive” her and then, afterwards, you take her home and marry her "ואסור לבעול אותה ביאה שנייה, עד שיישאנה"
Upon further research (in the minchas chinuch) i chanced upon a debate about what would be the law if she was a ketanah (UNDER TWELVE YEARS OLD, WE JUST WENT FROM RAPE TO PEDOPHILIA!!!!)? Is her acceptance of conversion valid? Which means that there was no question that you can have sex with the minor, we only wonder at what point is her conversion valid. I dont need to say that once you are dealing with children, consent is not even a question.
"According to atheism, anything may be considered moral"
Once again, atheism makes no claims about morality rendering your last statement a non sequitur, I've said this more times than i care to count yet you seem to think that by repeating it ad nauseam, it will somehow magically become logically coherent. Secondly, i would counter it by saying that according to theism, anything may be considered moral, so long as god says so. Including mass genocide (lo s'chayeh kol neshama) rape and pedophilia(see above) and slavery (parshas mishpatim)just to name a few.
Atheism doesn't command anyone to do anything. Since evolution created us and evolution has no intelligence, it does not command anything. However atheism removes all barriers to committing any crime. From that point, raw human nature takes over.
ReplyDeleteArguing that atheism has no effect on morality is similar to arguing that blowing up a dam would not be murder. The dam breaking does no harm. It's all that water behind the dam which is killing thousands of people and the bomber had nothing to do with that! Of course, such a ridiculous argument would not hold water in any courtroom.
"i would counter it by saying that according to theism, anything may be considered moral, so long as god says so."
But He doesn't say so too often. I have personally been an Orthodox Jew for 35 years and have never been advised by a rabbi to do anything illegal. In fact, the Orthodox Jewish crime rate is pretty low.
http://www.torahphilosophy.com/2008/09/orthodox-jewish-crime.html
"Which means that there was no question that you can have sex with the minor,"
Actually, there are a lot of questions about the treatment of a captive woman. Sifrei states that if he has intercourse with her before marrying her, it is a licentious act. Yerushalmi Makkot 2: 6 agrees with this reading. Rashi in Kidushin also maintains that it is only permitted to have relations with her after marrying her.
http://www.utoronto.ca/wjudaism/journal/vol1n1/v1n1elma.htm
http://www.shemayisrael.com/parsha/chrysler/archives/kisetze71.htm
The most you can claim, and I'm not sure about this, you have to find the sources, is that some medieval rabbinical authorities would have permitted a Jewish soldier to have sex with a gentile captive little girl in a war declared by the Jewish king and high court, which would have been over two thousand years ago, as the Sefer haChinuch mitzvah 532 states
ונוהגת מצוה זו בזמן מישראל
על אדמתן כי אז היה להם רשות ויכולת בידם להלחם
In any case, there seems to be no question that Jefferson was not only skeptical about God, he was also a selfish, dishonest man, a racist and proud of it (as was Darwin a few decades later) and it is not true that Orthodox Judaism condones this type of behavior, regardless of however you want to interpret some obscure medieval commentaries concerning laws which expired millenniums ago.
ReplyDelete"Atheism doesn't command anyone to do anything"
ReplyDeleteYES! YES! i finally got this through to you.
"However atheism removes all barriers to committing any crime. From that point, raw human nature takes over."
removes all barriers? human nature takes over? I am sure that you are familliar with the human nature towards sympathy, and empathy, which is what prevents (a barrier, as you referred to it) most people from comiting crimes.
"I have personally been an Orthodox Jew for 35 years and have never been advised by a rabbi to do anything illegal."
of course not, you are further proving my point that human empathy sympathy and good old common sense, trumps religious nonesense more often than not (thankfully) and that we have grown above and beyond the backwards sense of "morality" taught by the bible.
"... is that some medieval rabbinical authorities would have permitted a Jewish soldier to have sex with a gentile captive little girl in a war declared by the Jewish king and high court"
" some obscure medieval commentaries concerning laws which expired millenniums ago"
yes, but they were medieval and backwards compared to a modern understanding of morality, but the bronze age? no, they were absolutly moral...
"which would have been over two thousand years ago, as the Sefer haChinuch mitzvah 532 states"
are you implying that it was ok because it was so long ago?
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete"I am sure that you are familliar with the human nature towards sympathy, and empathy, which is what prevents (a barrier, as you referred to it) most people from comiting crimes."
ReplyDeleteLet's do a thought experiment. Let's say all law enforcement in the United States would be abolished tomorrow. All courts and police stations would close. You dial 911 and it just rings. All prison guards would quit and go home. What do you think the United States would look like in one year? A paradise of empathy?
What keeps everybody from killing everybody else is the following:
A million law enforcement officers working 24/7 to stop crime.
A penal system with a population of about two million people at any given moment.
Plus a fear of God, or at least some residual fear of God left over from God fearing parents or grandparents which people call their "conscience".
And we still have about 20,000 homicides a year. At the height of the Iraq war, far more Americans were killing Americans than Iraqis were killing Americans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War#U.S._armed_forces
And Jews never had sex with their slaves as Thomas Jefferson did and never considered blacks to be racially inferior. Those are very modern ideas of racism which science invented. Accusing Jews of "doing the same thing" is again a straw man. Ask your rabbi if it's OK for you to have sex with your 14 year old illegal immigrant cleaning woman who has no choice. Ask him what a Bronze Age rabbi would say. Tell me what he says.
The Torah's morality is not Bronze age or Space age, it's eternal.
As I mentioned, the straw man thing seems to be your one theme so far. You may want to consider moving on to a different logical fallacy just to spice things up a little. I have whole list of logical fallacies which atheists commonly resort to.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.torahphilosophy.com/2009/06/post-about-comments.html
And by the way, about that Bronze Age morality and zeitgeist business, at a time when the most popular sport was witnessing murder in gladiatorial combat
ReplyDeletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiator
the rabbis were de facto abolishing the death penalty, probably the first nation to do so
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_capital_punishment#Judaism
I'm afraid I have to define this blog again as Mutterings of a Dysfunctional Yeshiva Bochur.
"What keeps everybody from killing everybody else is the following: A million law enforcement officers working 24/7 to stop crime. A penal system with a population of about two million people at any given moment.Plus a fear of God, or at least some residual fear of God left over from God fearing parents or grandparents which people call their "conscience"."
ReplyDeletefalse. false, and false. for some reason the areas with the most cops are the areas with the most crime, our penal system clearly does not deter crime, as more often than not, we see repeat offenders. what stops most people from killing (and i speak on behalf of myself and my fellow theistic and atheistic sane human beings) is EMPATHY, SYMPATHY, AND COMMON HUMAN DECENCY. if you feel that if not for the above facts you would kill, rape, and steal, then for the sake of humanity please admit youreself to a psych ward, you are clearly a phychopath.
"And Jews... never considered blacks to be racially inferior."
of course not you view the entire non jewish world as inferior (atem k'ruyim adam v'lo heim k'ruyim adam... am hadomeh l'chamor...)
"Ask your rabbi if it's OK for you to have sex with your 14 year old"
furthering my faith in humanity, and further demonstrating that common decency will trump any religous nonsense EVEN IF GOD SAYS ITS OK. i just patiently wait until it is all relegated to the dustbins of history
"The Torah's morality is not Bronze age or Space age, it's eternal"
no, the torahs morality must constantly be changed to be made to fit with ever evolving human decency and morality
"As I mentioned, the straw man thing seems to be your one theme so far."
i resent this attack as i cited sources, however let me give you a chance to explain yourself. when you called jefferson a "known pedophile" "a lowlife" and a "scumball", exactly what was your issue with him?
was it that sally was by modern standards underage (hence you calling him a pedophile)? i think not since your torah would consider a 14 year old girl, a grown woman.
was it that she was taken advantage of? again i think not, as we see that your torah again, permits this (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/e508.htm) (even if you refuse to call it rape, a soldier in a conquering army taking a woman he pleases and having sex with her, is at the very least called taking advantage of her)
was it the slavery that you felt was immoral? once again, the torah permits this (parshas mishpatim) (even though i dont think that this is your issue but i will give it a chance anyways)
so, please, do clarify, why do you thing jefferson was "lowlife" "scumball"?
please, do explain
"what stops most people from killing (and i speak on behalf of myself and my fellow theistic and atheistic sane human beings) is EMPATHY, SYMPATHY, AND COMMON HUMAN DECENCY"
ReplyDeleteSo how do you explain the savagery which occurs whenever law enforcement disappears, for example during the 1977 New York City blackout, Somalia in recent years or Baghdad in 2003?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_New_York_City_blackout#Effects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_in_Somalia#Social_conditions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq#Security.2C_looting_and_war_damage
Can you cite examples where people lived with EMPATHY, SYMPATHY, AND COMMON HUMAN DECENCY without law enforcement and without a fear of God?
"you view the entire non jewish world as inferior"
Which has nothing to do with race. People of any color can and do convert.
"the torahs morality must constantly be changed to be made to fit with ever evolving human decency and morality"
The Torah has been way ahead of any other society. At a time when the most popular sport was witnessing murder in gladiatorial combat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiator
the rabbis were de facto abolishing the death penalty, probably the first nation to do so
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_capital_punishment#Judaism
You write "Thomas Jefferson is my favorite president".
I'm simply pointing out that I find it hard to get so enthusiastic about a man who was so dishonest and selfish and I think his views about religion and race were shaped by those qualities. You however keep plugging along claiming he was just part of his zeitgeist, so that makes it OK.
I'm afraid I have to define this blog again as Mutterings of a Dysfunctional Yeshiva Bochur.
Just incidentally, John Lennon beautifully sang in 1971
ReplyDeleteImagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace
http://www.lyrics007.com/John%20Lennon%20Lyrics/Imagine%20Lyrics.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine_(song)
Lennon has been accused of committing murder, perhaps several times, in the 1960's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_John_Lennon
Typical atheist hypocrisy and nonsense.
"So how do you explain the savagery which occurs whenever law enforcement disappears, for example during the 1977 New York City blackout, Somalia in recent years or Baghdad in 2003?"
ReplyDeletefirstly not all people are moral, secondly everytime you see a few people working together and not under the watchful eyes of the law, anarchy (i am using anarchy in the chaotic sense not the political) does not ensue. people do not generally fuck each other over at the first given opportunity. incidently iraq and america are both predominently theistic, religous, countries.
"Which has nothing to do with race"
they are both symptoms of the same xenophobia
"the rabbis were de facto abolishing the death penalty, probably the first nation to do so"
please see my post entitled "An Ode to Epicurus" and see the quotes i bring from the rambam, the mechaber, and the rema. they say that even today, an apikores or a min should be killed however possible.
http://yeshivasdiscordia.blogspot.com/2012/05/ode-to-epicurus.html
"I'm simply pointing out..."
you miss my point, i admire for what he has accomplished as a politician and as a leader of our country. when you bring his personal sex life into the picture, firstly it has nothing to do with what he has accomplished on behalf of our country and secondly, what he did was not immoral considering the moral zeitgeist of his time.
"Lennon has been accused of committing murder, perhaps several times, in the 1960's."
firstly, who is discussing lenon, secondly have you even read the article you sent me to?!?!?!? i quote
"Paul McCartney... telling fans and the press "Look, don't buy it." He also called it "a piece of trash" and claimed Goldman made up "any old bunch of lies he sees fit""
"quote from The Beatles' record producer George Martin: "I think it is iniquitous that people can libel the dead. If John was alive, that book would not have come out. It is largely untrue, but, sadly, if mud is thrown it tends to stick." Martin also labeled the book as "codswallop"."
"Other celebrities who'd known Lennon personally, including Geraldo Rivera and Tom Snyder, largely expressed an attitude of "Interesting story—who's it about? That's not the man I knew.""
"The October 20, 1988 issue of Rolling Stone lambasted the book in a lengthy and extensively-researched article by David Fricke and Jeffrey Ressner, "Imaginary Lennon". The reviewers described the book as "riddled with factual inaccuracies, embroidered accounts of true events that border on fiction and suspect information provided by tainted sources." Further, Fricke and Ressner stated that "Rolling Stone spoke to sources interviewed by Goldman who said that they were misquoted or that the information they provided him was used out of context. Other figures close to Lennon who refused to speak to Goldman or were not contacted by him claim that incidents in the book in which they appear either never happened or did not occur in the way Goldman recounts them." Among the factual errors listed by Rolling Stone:
Guitarist Danny Forchnar denies Lennon ever bit him in the nose
Goldman source Tony Monero denies Lennon ever told him to "Suck my cock!"
Apple executive Tony King denies Lennon snorted cocaine before his 1974 concert appearance with Elton John
Goldman incorrectly describes the Lennons' kitchen stove as match-lit when recounting an anecdote of Lennon trying to set Ono's hair on fire"
"allegedly containing much unsubstantiated conjecture, and tending to present worst-case scenarios when doing so."
tis isnt even the half of it, go read the article you sent me to. in your deperation you have sunk to an all new low
"everytime you see a few people working together and not under the watchful eyes of the law, anarchy (i am using anarchy in the chaotic sense not the political) does not ensue"
ReplyDeleteCan you cite examples where people lived with EMPATHY, SYMPATHY, AND COMMON HUMAN DECENCY without law enforcement and without a fear of God? Like a few hundred people for a few decades? If not then I guess EMPATHY, SYMPATHY, AND COMMON HUMAN DECENCY are pretty weak.
"they are both symptoms of the same xenophobia"
Jews are like priests and the gentiles are like laity. The laity is inferior to the priesthood, however that is because they live a more secular life. Judaism however teaches that we all children of Adam and all fundamentally equal. A Nigerian who converts to Judaism can become the greatest spiritual giant. A child of a rabbi who denies the Torah is the lowest slime. No one is limited by things he didn't choose.
"i admire for what he has accomplished as a politician and as a leader of our country"
You know Hitler did a great deal for animal rights in Germany.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_welfare_in_Nazi_Germany
I look forward to your post "A Tribute to Adolf Hitler, The Animal Rights Advocate Who Shaped Germany And Reshaped The World".
Of course the Fuehrer had his flaws; nobody's perfect. But when you consider the zeitgeist and so forth, he wasn't that bad.
"they say that even today, an apikores or a min should be killed however possible"
Has there been one documented case of that penalty being imposed?
In the United States, treason is a death penalty. In over 200 years, apparently no has been put to death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#Federal
"firstly, who is discussing lenon"
Me.
"secondly have you even read the article you sent me to?!?!?!?"
The book of course was criticized by millions of adoring Lennon fans, however there are two sides to the story.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1989/mar/02/the-lives-of-john-lennon/
More recent readers I think take a more balanced view as well.
http://www.amazon.com/Lives-John-Lennon-Albert-Goldman/product-reviews/1556523998/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_btm?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending
In any case, no one doubts that Lennon treated his first wife and mother of his first child horribly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynthia_Lennon#Divorce
I therefore would not be surprised if Goldman's biography is pretty accurate.